The Elder Wand Mystery: All about the Deathly Hallows’ Elder Wand
The Elder Wand and all that stuff
When I write my initial post about the Plot Holes in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, I never expected the kind of response it generated.
My plot holes were picked apart, analysed, dissected, destroyed, thrown in the garbage bin, recovered and refurbished and thrown in the garbage bin again.
The number of Harry Potter experts out there is simply amazing. Some of you know such in-depth, forgotten stuff from the books that it is just admirable!
One of the questions - and answers - which came up again and again was about the Elder Wand, one of the Deathly Hallows. How it worked in the book, was there anything inconsistent about it, was it logical the way it switched allegiances…
I have extracted the Elder-Wand related portions from the comments of the original thread, and am posting it here separately for those who have questions, and answers, on the Elder Wand. Remember that each paragraph below is an extract from a comment from the original thread. So if it doesn’t make sense on its own, go to the original Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Plot Holes thread and read from the beginning.
Here goes, all about the Elder Wand! Entirely made up of contributions from Potter and Rowling fans. Here’s a Thank You to you all!
START
- Because he disarmed Draco, the Elder Wand, which Voldemort now possesses actually considers harry its master. Assume that this is true. How can Harry be so sure? Dumbledore did not tell him that. Olliwander did not tell him that. Harry is no expert in wandlore. How did he figure it out? How did this clueless nitwit suddenly work it all out by himself?
- As mentioned, Dumbledore also defeated the guy with the Elder Wand in a duel. What’s up with that? Did he get Death’s backup Wand to make it equal?
- The story of how the Elder wand was undefeatable was only legend/myth/story - not meant to be taken literally. Its a very powerful wand but the fact that Dumbledore beat Grindelwald and the wand - is merely an implication of Dumbledore’s amazing skill. The Elder wand can be beaten - its just very difficult.
- If you defeat the owner of the Elder wand, you become the righful owner of the Elder wand. It doesn’t matter if he’s using the deathstick, his old wand or a stick of wood he just found on the floor, if you defeat him, you become the rightful owner of the Elder wand - its magic!
- Crucio did not work on Harry for two reasons1. Harry was the rightful owner of the Elder wand
2. In sacrificing himself , Harry put the same protection on himself and the others, as Lily gave to him - therefore Voldemorts curses were not binding. - If the Elder Wand is not undefeatable, what’s so powerful about it? Catch someone off guard and simply disarm them like Draco did and guess what, you’ve got the most powerful wand in the world! Ridiculous.
- What’s the purpose of the Elder Wand being such a powerful and “Hallowed” thing if a sixth-year student can knock it out of your hands simple as pie? And you slipped up saying if you beat the Elder Wand you become the master of it. See, just like Rowling that put you in a corner. Grindelwald didn’t defeat anyone to get it, so he was never the rightful owner. The old wand maker is.
- “So if a wizard takes any wand that belongs to the owner of the Elder wand, the wizard is considered defeated, and Elder Wand switches loyalties? Sorry, Rowling has not thought this through well enough.” - I’m sorry but that’s your opinion, there is no flaw in this.
- Voldemort’s cruciatus curse did not work on Harry because Voldemort was using the Elder want ,which as I said, was owned rightfully by Harry. I’ll admit i made a mistake before - the protection did not contribute to why cruciatus didnt work on Harry, the fact that he was the rightful owner of the Elder wand was enough.
- ive re-read the whole Elder wand thing, and it appears that i have an answer to your ‘plot hole’ (and yes i do know the meaning of the term). Grindelwald was never the rightful owner of the wand, as he captured it. I’ll agree with you there, perhaps thats why Dumbledore could defeat him. But by defeating him Dumbledore won the allegiance of the wand and became its rightful owner! convenient i’ll admit, but remember it’s a book!
- To say he didn’t feel it because Voldemort was using the Elder Wand doesn’t work either. He felt the death curse. It hit him like an iron fist I believe he said.
- There was only one time in history in which somoene had survived the avada-kedavra curse - and Voldemort thought he had solved that problem the second time round. He also had the Elder wand, and didn’t know about its alternate allegiance so he had every reason to believe that Harry was dead, especially when his wishful thought was reinforced by a death-eater.
- Firstly, if the Elder Wand is undefeatable, how on EARTH did Dumbledore get it from Grindelwald? And we know they had a battle of epic proportions. Enough said for that first one.
- Ollivander told him that when a wand is taken from a person by means of “defeating” the other person, the wand will realize and shift allegiance. This should hold true for all wands belonging to that person. PLUS, technically, Draco was “defeated” by Harry, so the Elder Wand WOULD have changed allegiance. (Note, Dumbledore was defeated by Draco when Dumbledore got expelliarmus-ed. About Grindelwald taking wand from Gregorovitch: “defeated”, again, buy stunning.)
- And it seems unlikely that Voldy would like to know about children’s tales. He only knew about the Elder Wand after Voldy confronted Ollivander about it.
- About the whole Elder Wand business: I don’t think the Elder Wand is REALLY unbeatable. It’s a VERY powerful wand that gives its owner a huge advantage in open combat, BUT a skilled enough opponent could still beat the Elder Wand’s master. Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard in the world, and probably had enough skill to beat Grindlewald in a duel, DESPITE the fact that Grindlewald had the Elder Wand.
- “How about the fact that the Elder wand was supposed to be unbeatable in a duel…yet Dumbledore won it in a …duel?”This question has been asked several times. And the answer is: It’s NOT unbeatable. It’s just very powerful.
- All of this was supposed to be Dumbledore master plan but how could he possibly know that Harry is going to disarm Malfoy, it is purely accident that they ended up in Malfoy mansion and that he happened to disarm him, so how was Harry supposed to get the elder wand?
- How did the elderwand end up back in Dumbledore’s crypt (to be later stolen by Voldemort) to begin with?
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Harry getting the Elder Wand wasn’t part of Dumbledores master plan. Dumbledores plan was that Snape would defeat him by killing him, and would then be master of the wand. Then the Elder Wand would be buried with Dumbledore and provided Snape died undefeated, the wands power would be broken. As the wand is only powerful if it’s previous owner has been defeated, it could never have been used after Snape was dead even if someone had retrieved from Dumbledores tomb because the owner would not be alive to defeat.
However, as we know it didn’t work out like that, because Draco disarmed Dumbledore, which Dumbledore himself had not counted on, he could never have foreseen a circumstance where a 16 year old would defeat him and had he not been weakened by the potion he drank and had he not taken the time to freeze Harry under the cloak to protect him, there is no way Draco would have succeeded.
Harry did not know for sure that the Elder Wand had changed it’s allegence to him. He says to Voldemort something like ’so if that wand (The Elder Wand) knows that it’s last master (Draco) was disarmed (by Harry) then it also knows I am it’s new master’
As to how Dumbledores wand ended up in his tomb, I would assume that as a mark of respect most witches and wizards are buried with their wands and who of those at Hogwarts would even think about keeping Dumbledore’s wand and what would they do with it, bearing in mind that no one (apart from Dumbledore and Snape) knew that Dumbledore owned the Elder Wand??
The Elder Wand is not undefeatable, this wand has been passed from person to person each of them defeating wand owner in order to own it themselves. There is no way it can be undefeatable, otherwise it would have still belonged to the Peverell brother who made it when he died and would have lost it’s power centuries ago.
[...] No Comments So, I came across Matt’s blog on the Delhi Bloggers mailing list and the post that I saw right up on top there was some list of points regarding the Eldar Wand in the last of [...]
It is quite an foolish part of J.K.Rowling that
the Elder Wand(so called the most powerful wand)
should remain at the WHITE TOMB with the dead body
of Dumbledore,and enforcing 0% protection upon it.
Voldemort easily seized it.
Hm, I came on here trying to figure out how Dumbledore had beaten Grindelwald and won the supposedly unbeatable wand. I should have known not to doubt J.K. She’s incredible. Though it is a bit depressing that it really wasn’t unbeatable, seeing as how the cloak and the ring lived up to the fairy tale Hallows. I guess they were just invented by the Peverells instead of belonging to Death. Ah, well. She has a tendency to make the most fictional of subjects completely plausible.
Hi,
I was really looking for answers to some flaws that i thought was there in the story. May be some of u can give me answers on that.
I felt the Taboo thing in the “Voldermort” was a bit rusty. the deatheaters came to the cafe and also broke all the protection around the tent. But why not of grimaud place.Does it have any extra protection. Lupin & Harry was using the name many times.
The second doubt is Granger tells Harry that she has done charms and given her parents a new memory and in the cafe she tell she only knows the theory about memory charms and tries that on the deatheaters. is there any explanations for this.
And my comments for the plots about the Death stick “the boy who lived has powers unknown to the darklord, he knows things the darklord doesn’t know” and in the Half blood prince Dumbledor tells Voldermort that his knowledge in certain areas is very poor. so i think these lines can be of some explanation why darklord is ignorent of many things.
Then again, Dumbledore tells Harry that he has tamed the wand but the cloak will still not work for him as it works for Harry as he(Harry) was the true owner. So in the King’s cross Harry has discovered the Hallows and he is the true owner. so the theory he tells voldermort is true and will work. He is the true owner of the wand then only he could have found the Hallow and finally in that chapter it self Dumbledore confess that his plan did not work (the flaw in the plan was Draco disarming Dumbledore) i feel like that, correct me if i a m wrong.
There are no plot holes as far as the Elderwand lore is concerned.
The wand was a trick to begin with. Remember? Death wanted to trick the proud and vain brother. While the WAND itself is unbeatable(its powers have never died and it’s still around after surviving countless masters), the person carrying it is not. It’s owners are only as powerful as their own skill.
That’s how Dumbledore was able to defeat Grindelwald. He was a better wizard. And that’s probably how he kept it for so long. That and the fact that he had become a kind of pacifist (which helped him evade the trap Death had set upon the wand to get its owners killed). If you remember, Dumbledore always liked to try reasoning with people and only fought them as a last resort. Also, even when he fought them, there were certain curses he was unwilling to use. Because -when it came to fighting- his heart was pure, he had finally mastered the Elderwand.
For those of you who are confused, this is a map out of the Elderwand plot:
1. Gorgovich got the wand from who knows
2. Grindelwald stunned Gorgovich and took the wand (think about how both of these men fell into Death’s trap by 1. Seeking the wand. and 2. Bragging about having it. 3. Thinking they were invincible with it. Even though neither still owned the wand when Death came to call, they invited someone- Vauldemort - to try to kill them by boasting of having it.)
3. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald and took the wand
4. Draco disarmed Dumbledore before Snape could come and kill him.
5. Neither Snape nor Draco knew about the wand, so they just left it there. The wand was buried with Dumbledore because everyone thought his wand was normal. No other wand switches allegiances like the Elderwand. Normal wands choose one “master” for eternity and aren’t as useful to anyone else, so no one would think to keep Dumbledore’s wand.
6. Dumbledore planned for Harry to sacrifice himself to Vauldemort to save everyone else. He knew that Harry was the only person Vauldemort really wanted to kill. So, if Harry obeyed him and destoyed all the other horcruxes and then allowed Vauldemort to kill him, too, only Vauldemort himself would be left alive. But he would be weak becasue of the protection Harry’s death had provided everyone. This was Dumbledore’s ultimate plan.
6. Snape has promised to look out for Harry and make sure that he is killed only by Vauldemort. Dumbeldore told him that Harry’s death at Vauldemort’s hands was the only way to destroy Vauldemort. Snape trusts Dumbledore and tries everything he can to find Harry and bring him to Vauldemort.
7. Vauldemort realizes that he is not the wand’s master and kills Snape - thinking that Snape took it’s allegiance from Dumbledore when he killed him. Then Vauldemort takes the wand into the forest to wait for Harry - not knowing that he’s still not the wand’s master.
8. Snape shares his memories with Harry before Snape dies, so Harry can finish the plan.
9. After Harry sees what must be done, he accepts his fate. Harry doesn’t know that he’s master of the Elderwand at this point. He just knows that he has to die so others can live. He doesn’t know that the Elderwand can’t kill him. In fact, he thinks it will.
10. He goes to meet Vauldemort after making sure that Neville will destroy the snake horcrux. All Harry understands at this point is Dumbledore’s plan. He - like Dumbledore - has no idea that fate has other plans.
11. Vauldemort uses the Elderwand to direct an avada-kedavra curse at Harry. The curse hits Harry hard - just as it did when it left his lightening-shaped scar - but only hard enough to render him unconcious for a moment. It could only kill that part of Vauldemort within Harry - destroying Harry as a horcrux. (That little suffering being at the train station was the little part of Vauldemort’s soul within Harry.)
12. At the station, Dumbledore helped Harry to see that he wasn’t dead because of the flaw in Dumbeldore’s plan - Harry becoming Master of the wand. AND because Harry had chosen to remain wandless when allowing Vauldemort to hit him with the curse, Harry was still master.
13. Harry remembered that Draco had disarmed Dumbledore and Harry had disarmed Draco when they escaped the Malfoys’ house. Harry remembered how strage Draco’s wand had been acting in his hand and how it had chosen him right in front of Olliwander.
14. Harry went back and pretended to be dead. When V tried to curse him, it had no effect because Harry was its master. So, V went to try and conquer the castle - thinking Harry surely dead.
15. V tries to kill Neville, but can’t b/c Harry’s willingness to die has protected him. Neville kills the snake horcrux. Only one V left to kill - one V who cant kill anyone else because all of his potential victims are protected.
16. Harry tries to warn V, but V’s arrogance and coldness cloud his ability to reason. V continues to fall into Death’s trap.
17. Harry directs V’s curse right back at him. The curse could’ve never killed Harry because it came from the Elderwand of which Harry was master. But it could kill V. And it did.
See? No holes at all. This is the MOST sound part of the plot!
DD mistakenly believed that he could destroy the power of the elder wand by being its last legitimate owner and die in such a way as to ensure that its power died with him (essentially committing suicide by letting Snape kill him). He knew he would die anyway because of the curse of Malvolo’s ring. Snape and DD must have hatched this plan after DD foolishly put on the ring to see his dead sister and before Narcissa came to Snape for help. DD never told Snape about the elder wand though.
I say DD made a mistake in his belief of ending the elder wand’s power because I believe that the elder wand would do whatever was necessary to ensure that it always had a proper living owner, gravitating to the most powerful by its nature. Thus, the elder wand’s will is demonstrated when Draco (not Snape) shows up and disarms the weakened DD before Snape kills him, making Draco the elder wand’s proper owner and thwarting DD’s plan to be its last legitimate owner.